Fun in the snow!

[petrified.rabbit]

i totally read that wrong, thought you were looking for losing control to have fun..

haha..

the rear wheels just follow the car, unless you brake on ice etc.. when the car is not under acceleration, it acts like every other car. i means of braking techniques, sliding etc..

the fwd aspect, keep the tires pointed where you want to go with slight gas, turning too much or too much gas will only complicate things.. and your tires will just spin.. sometimes if you are slipping straightening up the steering a bit with a little car will help you re catch and then you correct your direction..

but just like ice you cant really control the car on ice.. in snow it will be very controlled. But this is my driving technique, might not work for everyone..

[xintersecty]

Both defensive and fun! I got really good at rear wheel drive when I lived off a dirt mountain road in western NC with my 72 beetle. Yes I have put it in the ditch several times. I banged up my fenders a few times, and it was well worth it.

I drove a FORD 350 Van several years for my company. In the rain under hard breaking the rear will break loose. Being able to control that while coming to a stop saved an accident or two.

I also can shorten my U-Turn radius with my pickup being hitting the gas and counter steer. Usually a very precise move just not appreciated by passengers nor cops.....

Here in SC I am going to have to wait for a snow or an icing once I get my car back from NC just so I can learn how to "really drive" it under adverse conditions. I did drive my aveo in really adverse conditions last year. I was going from Iowa to NC when I got stuck on the WV turnpike and spent 12 hours there. Before being stuck between Kentucky and West Virginia I was averaging in 40 to 50 on fresh snow. The little aveo did really well. I never really pushed the car just kept to conservative survival driving.

[exodus0784]

FWD in snow and other loose surfaces for fun and safety:

It's all about weight shift. Rotate the car with weight shift and keep the tires pointed in the direction you want to go. Braking puts weight on the front wheels, accelerating puts weight on the rear wheels.

From hear on out I'm going to sound like a broken record. LEFT FOOT BRAKING LFB LFB LFB LFB LFB. Learn to brake with your left foot so you can do it as smoothly and you can with your right. Required prerequisite. Using LFB you'll almost never have to, or want to, touch your handbrake again in snow or other loose surfaces.

Primitive traction control: Front wheels break loose. You find that nearly any amount of throttle and they spin. Apply a little brake with your left foot, primitive traction control.

Cornering Basics: All about weight shift. Brake in a straight line before the corner, shifting the weight to your front wheels, creating more friction. Let off the brakes and start your turn before the front suspension unloads. This ensures maximum traction at the front tires without overworking them. Gently reapply throttle as you approach the corner apex.

Ok, enough of the safety crap.

Fun cornering: Same as above, but you're going to enter the corner just a bit faster. This is either intentional, or by accident. After you complete your braking, you turn the wheel, start to reapply the throttle, and the car starts to understeer (doesn't rotate). With your left foot gently apply the brakes, very little is required: 1/4-1/3 effective travel is all you should ever need or want. This pulls weight off the outside rear wheel and moves it to the outside front, lightening the rear and giving the front more traction. If done correctly, the car will basically pivot on the front wheels. This also shaves off your excess speed. Arguably slower than the smooth cornering methods, but much more fun.

Flick/Pendulum turn: Very effective in the Aveo thanks to it's exaggerated weight shift and body roll. There are two ways to do this. The first is fun, the second is terrifying.

Basic flick: Accelerating towards a corner: Let off the throttle and steer AWAY from the corner, quickly steer back towards the corner and once the car begins to turn slowly get back on the throttle. It's difficult to pull off without just plowing straight, but when done correctly, the back end will come around very quickly. The basic idea is that when you let off the throttle, you'll load the front suspension. The sudden turn into the corner loads the outside tires giving you a fair amount of grip to quickly take the corner. The key is doing it fast enough so that the front suspension still has load on it.

Scandinavian Flick: SISU (Finnish, roughly translates to strength of will). This technique is completely counter intuitive, and scary as hell if done on stage. Approach the corner with an insane amount of speed. Let off the throttle, and steer away from the corner while the front suspension is loaded. LOCK THE BRAKES. Loading the front suspension even further. You're going to use this to shed off that retarded amount of speed you're carring. As you get to your turning point, let off the brakes and turn in, if done correctly, the rear end will whip around and you'll not be dead. This is most effective for very tight corners. High first gear or low second gear hairpins/square corners.

Obviously none of the fun stuff above should be attempted on a public road. This is all really for snow (all translates to gavel/dirt as well), and you should have snowshoes on. If you're on ice without studs, good luck and god speed.

[xintersecty]

Exodus! Thanks! I never really thought about in terms of weight shift. It makes perfect sense. As an skater (roller and ice hockey) you learn to shift your weight on certain parts of the skate for traction or turns. Now I have to get back to left foot breaking (I used to do this on a forklift.)

[petrified.rabbit]

i dont use left foot braking because the front wheels do 90% of the stopping.. left foot braking is a style carried over from rwd, and awd cars. It works, don't get me wrong, but to use it controllably on a fwd car, will wear your brakes.. using the ebrake to control rear end slide isn't something i do either, but it was just listed as a "fun" thing to do.

As far as using left foot braking as a launch control, thats something i have never tried. i guess it lets you give more gas for rpms, while slowing the tires, but i just usually rev high, and the let the clutch out as the rpms are dropping past the appropriate rpm..

for example, rev to 2500, when the rpms drop to 2000 i let out the clutch and just feather the gas enough to pull out above idle. It sounds like it wouldn't work, but it does with practice.

[exodus0784]

LFB absolutely wears out your brakes, and overheats them very quickly, no argument there. It's also important to qualify that I'm not talking both feet planted to the floor, or using LFB to stop while on the throttle. In rallycross I generally never go completely off throttle unless I'm shifting, either. I try to keep a little bit of throttle on so that I don't lock the wheels and stall the motor, but that's it. Primarily it's used to control the attitude of the car while cornering.

LFB works similarly in a FWD as it does in an AWD. Shifts weight forward onto the front wheels, increasing cornering traction, and loosening the rear wheels, inducing oversteer. RWD, from my understanding, is the exact opposite. In power oversteer, apply the brake to slow the rear wheels and bring the car back in line.

There's a couple schools and thought and arguments on both sides in regards to LFB in a FWD car (this all generally applies to Rally/Rallycross, on tarmac you're talking mostly about trail braking). There are fast people who use LFB, and fast people who never LFB. The people who LFB claim you're able to carry more speed through the corner, while achieving good exit speeds. The people who don't, say you're sacrificing exit speed (in like a lamb, out like a lion). All that being said, all the people I've talked to who went to the Team O'Neil rally school said they focus a ton on LFB in all drivetrain formats and firmly believe it's a crucial technique to master, especially in FWD.

In regards to the aveo, I think LFB on dirt/gravel/snow is essential to fast times. You just don't have any power to put down at the exit of a corner, so you need to carry as much through the corner as possible.

Here's the way I take a typical corner (say a low 2nd gear quick 90d corner): I still do most of my braking in a straight line, but I'll enter the corner a little faster so that I know it will understeer slightly when I get on the throttle. Brake hard in a straight line, let off the brake, steer while the front suspension is still loaded, reapply the throttle, as soon as I feel the front outside wheel starting to give, I gradually apply the brake. This shifts the weight off of the rear wheels, onto the front wheels. This gives me more traction on the front, and breaks the rear wheels loose, causing the car to rotate. Once the car is positioned correctly in relation to the corner exit, I let off the brakes completely, usually about 1/4 of the way through the corner, unless I entered way too fast. Accelerate out. I feel this gives me much higher exit speeds than if I were just peg legging my way through using normal "Race technique."

In regards to "launch control:" I don't really use it in this fashion. I'll use it (outside of a performance driving situation) as a traction control aid. Like if I'm parked on an Icy hill trying to go up it. Let the wheels start spinning and apply a little brake to slow them down and "fish" for traction. It's not 100% effective, but I've had success with it.

Wow that was long winded. I could go on for hours about weight shift, LFB, race lines, and all that crap no one cares about

[petrified.rabbit]

see i use a different race line than you, plus i "jab" the brakes early in the turn to squat the front of the car, cut the turn, then accelerate through turn...

you can't really select your own line in the style of racing you do, the trail is only so wide, and grooved, so your style probably does work best.. as your running lines close to every other car regardless of platform. So you would need to lfb to keep speed through a turn since you dont have the traction of asphalt, nor the choice of a great line..

what you are saying does transfer to snow, but if you hit spots of cleared asphalt doing it, i think it would through you for a loop.. of course you have a lot more off road experience than me, i have only really done 4x4 mud trails, and dirt bikes..

[exodus0784]

Hitting cleared asphalt definitely throws a wrench into the monkey works. Changing surfaces is the "fun" part, which is what winter driving is at it's core. Guessing where the traction is.

Best advice I can give on snow is that every input you make is either horribly exaggerated (locked/spinning wheels, huge oversteer) or completely ignored (terrible understeer). Give yourself plenty of time/space to do whatever it is you're trying to do.

[daug1502]

Hitting cleared asphalt definitely throws a wrench into the monkey works. Changing surfaces is the "fun" part, which is what winter driving is at it's core. Guessing where the traction is.

Best advice I can give on snow is that every input you make is either horribly exaggerated (locked/spinning wheels, huge oversteer) or completely ignored (terrible understeer). Give yourself plenty of time/space to do whatever it is you're trying to do.

I agree 100% with that last statement. Especially with the black ice you occasionally run into.

All the fun I have is either in being smart enough to not get stuck or lose control on the actual roads, or just completely losing it in an open and safer environment, such as an unused parking lot. I like that driving tips fell into this discussion, they are very educational, and I hope will make people reading them safer and better drivers. I never considered suspension loading to help corner, and will definitely find a place to practice this.

As for Braking, what about sharing the throttle and brake with the same foot for corner control? This is actually something I saw on a Jackie Chan movie, but it makes sense to me, and I would like to learn more about it.

[exodus0784]

The pedals certainly are close enough in the Aveo to make it possible to use the same foot... I've never tried it outside of rev-matching though. If you could get the technique down, it would certainly help you with shifting in a car without a dogbox.

I think it would take a lot of practice to be able to manipulate both pedals, with the same foot, with any degree of accuracy... but if it doesn't take any practice, it's probably not worth doing.