Worse mileage with synthetic (and Bosch Platinum +4's)?

[hooah212002]

I won't respond to the synthetic issue as it appears I now have to do the research myself (which, I admit, I should have done in the first place, but i assumed someone had already done so and would respond accordingly with data instead of opinion).

I will, however, respond to the posters saying "get rid of the Bosch Platinums". I say "why?". I already spent the money, I can't take them back and I saw no fuel consumption change (check a few posts up where I admitted jumping the gun in my OP). Now, if going to the NGK Iridiums will give me noticable MPG improvements, then I can see dropping another $25-$30 on a new set.

[NorthernAveo]

I won't respond to the synthetic issue as it appears I now have to do the research myself (which, I admit, I should have done in the first place, but i assumed someone had already done so and would respond accordingly with data instead of opinion).

I will, however, respond to the posters saying "get rid of the Bosch Platinums". I say "why?". I already spent the money, I can't take them back and I saw no fuel consumption change (check a few posts up where I admitted jumping the gun in my OP). Now, if going to the NGK Iridiums will give me noticable MPG improvements, then I can see dropping another $25-$30 on a new set.

The bosch plat +4's have a history of falling apart in the cylinder and causing some piston damage. The best thing when it comes to spark plugs is keep it simple. A lot of people were seeing misfire from the +4's which was causing the engine to pull and retard timing which affected fuel economy.

Just because you spent the money doesn't mean you have to be stubborn and still use them. You can return them if they are not working properly. I have done so in teh past.

As for the synthetic, if you are using it, there is no research needed. Keep on using it but don't change it before 6000miles.

[petrified.rabbit]

There were serious issues with platinum plugs and waste spark ignition systems.
The manufacturer of the plugs "fixed" this, but the fix still limits the ignition system.

The wasted spark eventually fouls the plugs then all the thing northernaveo said occurs.

[NorthernAveo]

There were serious issues with platinum plugs and waste spark ignition systems.
The manufacturer of the plugs "fixed" this, but the fix still limits the ignition system.

The wasted spark eventually fouls the plugs then all the thing northernaveo said occurs.

There is no serious issue with platinum plugs. Seriously, where are you getting this information from? Are you making it up as you go? Do you have proof of this?

The only thing is that copper is a better condictor and thus has a hotter spark, but wears out faster. The only benefit of platinum is the wear rate. It doesn't help with anything else and it won't have a strong of a spark as the copper variety.

Iridium plugs follow the same path and is even harder, hads a lower conductivity, but its wear rate is longer than anything on the market.

There is no ignition system that will have any problem with an iridium plug nor will it affect anything other than plug wear rates. there is no damage, no issues and problems at all.

There is no wasted spark seeing the spark strength on a iridium plug is less than a platinum, and platinum is less than copper. Iridium is a poorer conductor than platinum, and platinum is a poorer condictor than copper.

It is that plain and simple and the misinformation needs to stop.

[Unidentifiable]

Hmmmm....I thought I said scientific. I don't think a forum website qualifies. Please explain the physics behind your claim that synthetic oil improves fuel economy. I understand about longevity and lower operating temperatures and all of the other benefits of synthetic oil, but please show me the empirical data showing improved fuel economy.

I know it's human nature to think you are getting better mileage since you paid all of that extra money, bit if there was a noticable, measurable cost effective improvement in mileage, don't you think they would advertise it?

Read the forum, all they do is talk about oil. I am not going to do the work for you. That site has the most infomation on oil on the internet. It is full of scientific discussion from industry reps and oil testing scientists from around the US.

Actually, they do advertise it. And seeing the oil doesn't thicken as much and its kinematic viscosity allows for quicker warmup and better colder temperature economy and lower viscosity, it does make a difference.

Who advertises it? I have yet to see an advertisement (that wasn't followed by a legal disclaimer fully explaining the circumstances) where an oil company (in present times) has touted economy benefits for their synthetic oils (of the same weight as a similarly rated dino oil).

All those qualifiers are necessary, because without them, you could simply point out that Mobil 1 claims an improvement with the use of their 0W synthetics.

There were serious issues with platinum plugs and waste spark ignition systems.
The manufacturer of the plugs "fixed" this, but the fix still limits the ignition system.

The wasted spark eventually fouls the plugs then all the thing northernaveo said occurs.

There is no serious issue with platinum plugs. Seriously, where are you getting this information from? Are you making it up as you go? Do you have proof of this?

The only thing is that copper is a better condictor and thus has a hotter spark, but wears out faster. The only benefit of platinum is the wear rate. It doesn't help with anything else and it won't have a strong of a spark as the copper variety.

Iridium plugs follow the same path and is even harder, hads a lower conductivity, but its wear rate is longer than anything on the market.

There is no ignition system that will have any problem with an iridium plug nor will it affect anything other than plug wear rates. there is no damage, no issues and problems at all.

There is no wasted spark seeing the spark strength on a iridium plug is less than a platinum, and platinum is less than copper. Iridium is a poorer conductor than platinum, and platinum is a poorer condictor than copper.

It is that plain and simple and the misinformation needs to stop.

Wasted Spark refers to a type of ignition system in which the coil delivers spark to two or more plugs at a time, in different cylinders. The nomenclature is in reference to the cylinder which is not at the top of the compression stroke receiving a spark, which is useless to that cylinder. It's a "wasted spark".

Calling for someone else to stop delivering misinformation is best left to someone who is not also giving it.

There have been a few of your posts that I've read that you exclaim your view as fact, without backing it up with any references. Posts like the one above, where you claim that there is no wasted spark, are false and essentially misleading. In another thread, you claimed that there is no fuel cutoff mode in vehicles, which is also blatantly false.

So, likewise, someone else could profess to you that the misinformation needs to cease.

[petrified.rabbit]

dont directly quote me on this (northernaveo i know you will to catch a mistake, you seem to have little else to do.)

waste spark is an ignition system with one coil for every two plugs as mentioned. used by every manufacturer at some point. its very efficient. By firing on the exhaust stroke there was an issue with platinum plugs, i can't remember if it was polarity, or excessive heat, whatever, But the original platinum plug would only last a few thousand miles from what was happening. Manufacturers "solved" this with either a resister or diode in the plug, i dont remember which. Keeping it from pulsing on the waste spark something along those lines as a solution. From what i have seen from that is the resistance of the circuit on the waste spark can be transferred to the compression spark side, meaning neither gets a full ignition spark, which eventually leads to a misfire and a cel, poorly running engine

Look into it, it is in history more than a current problem.. but i still hear/see lots of high end cars come in not running correctly because they were talked into the platinum plug special while attempting their own tune up.

i think i am going to head back over to aveonetwork now..

[NorthernAveo]

Who advertises it? I have yet to see an advertisement (that wasn't followed by a legal disclaimer fully explaining the circumstances) where an oil company (in present times) has touted economy benefits for their synthetic oils (of the same weight as a similarly rated dino oil).

All those qualifiers are necessary, because without them, you could simply point out that Mobil 1 claims an improvement with the use of their 0W synthetics.

Just....wow..... You obviously have no idea what a synthetic oil is and the protection and lubricational benefits of a Group 5 PAO based motor does do you.

You know nothing about synthetics but you retraction is that there isn't some advertsiement where they state fuel economy benefits?

You are just getting ridiculous. Again, go here (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php) and learn something before you blow out more ignorant opionion based on what you don't know about synthetic oil.

Just fess up and just say you don't want to use synthetic, but you don't know anything about it.

Wasted Spark refers to a type of ignition system in which the coil delivers spark to two or more plugs at a time, in different cylinders. The nomenclature is in reference to the cylinder which is not at the top of the compression stroke receiving a spark, which is useless to that cylinder. It's a "wasted spark".

Calling for someone else to stop delivering misinformation is best left to someone who is not also giving it.

There have been a few of your posts that I've read that you exclaim your view as fact, without backing it up with any references. Posts like the one above, where you claim that there is no wasted spark, are false and essentially misleading. In another thread, you claimed that there is no fuel cutoff mode in vehicles, which is also blatantly false.

so what about you claiming that the Aveo came with synthetic oil in the tranny as stock? How about that BS you spread right? I called you out on it and I was right.

Platinum plugs do not waste spark nor do they hurt coil packs or ignition systems. It is pure BS. All they do is wear longer and can be inserted into any vehicle that uses standard copper plugs and want to not have to change them as often. That is the only difference.

[NorthernAveo]

dont directly quote me on this (northernaveo i know you will to catch a mistake, you seem to have little else to do.)

waste spark is an ignition system with one coil for every two plugs as mentioned. used by every manufacturer at some point. its very efficient. By firing on the exhaust stroke there was an issue with platinum plugs, i can't remember if it was polarity, or excessive heat, whatever, But the original platinum plug would only last a few thousand miles from what was happening. Manufacturers "solved" this with either a resister or diode in the plug, i dont remember which. Keeping it from pulsing on the waste spark something along those lines as a solution. From what i have seen from that is the resistance of the circuit on the waste spark can be transferred to the compression spark side, meaning neither gets a full ignition spark, which eventually leads to a misfire and a cel, poorly running engine

Look into it, it is in history more than a current problem.. but i still hear/see lots of high end cars come in not running correctly because they were talked into the platinum plug special while attempting their own tune up.

i think i am going to head back over to aveonetwork now..

This is the thing, this had NOTHING to do with platinum plugs which is what you stated was the reason. Resistor plugs were made decades ago even before platinum plug were even mass produced.

They hurt nothing on an engine today and will not hurt or effect anythign related to today's ignition system.

[Unidentifiable]

Who advertises it? I have yet to see an advertisement (that wasn't followed by a legal disclaimer fully explaining the circumstances) where an oil company (in present times) has touted economy benefits for their synthetic oils (of the same weight as a similarly rated dino oil).

All those qualifiers are necessary, because without them, you could simply point out that Mobil 1 claims an improvement with the use of their 0W synthetics.

Just....wow..... You obviously have no idea what a synthetic oil is and the protection and lubricational benefits of a Group 5 PAO based motor does do you.

You know nothing about synthetics but you retraction is that there isn't some advertsiement where they state fuel economy benefits?

You are just getting ridiculous. Again, go here (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php) and learn something before you blow out more ignorant opionion based on what you don't know about synthetic oil.

Just fess up and just say you don't want to use synthetic, but you don't know anything about it.

Wasted Spark refers to a type of ignition system in which the coil delivers spark to two or more plugs at a time, in different cylinders. The nomenclature is in reference to the cylinder which is not at the top of the compression stroke receiving a spark, which is useless to that cylinder. It's a "wasted spark".

Calling for someone else to stop delivering misinformation is best left to someone who is not also giving it.

There have been a few of your posts that I've read that you exclaim your view as fact, without backing it up with any references. Posts like the one above, where you claim that there is no wasted spark, are false and essentially misleading. In another thread, you claimed that there is no fuel cutoff mode in vehicles, which is also blatantly false.

so what about you claiming that the Aveo came with synthetic oil in the tranny as stock? How about that BS you spread right? I called you out on it and I was right.

Platinum plugs do not waste spark nor do they hurt coil packs or ignition systems. It is pure BS. All they do is wear longer and can be inserted into any vehicle that uses standard copper plugs and want to not have to change them as often. That is the only difference.

Lower your heart rate, bud. It's bad for your blood pressure.

First of all, I do use synthetic oil. I use it in everything I operate, including my snow-blower.

Who said anything about synthetic oil in a transmission? You must have me confused with someone else... Maybe you should look at the name of the person who posted before demeaning someone with falsehood?

Also, noone ever said that platinum plugs waste spark. If you had actually comprehended the post, you would have understood that "wasted spark" is a type of ignition system which delivers a spark to a cylinder which does not utilize it, as well as the cylinder which should be firing at that particular cycle.

Wasted Spark Ignition System

I agree that BITOG is a great resource for information on oil, but I will not concur that the largest percentage of the data presented in the forum is scientific. The definition of scientific requires that the results be repeatable by any average Joe under controlled circumstances.

You also admit that platinum is a poorer conductor than copper, correct? Poorer conductivity leads to increased latent losses. Latent losses are essentially wasted electrical energy, burned as heat. The actual value for these losses in far into the microwatts, but that doesn't matter. Platinum (and copper, and any other conductor which does not transfer current with 100% efficiency) does waste spark. This follows in line with principles of conservation of energy. Some of the electrical energy in the conductors is converted to latent heat energy, which means that the amount of current delivered at the head of the spark plug will not equal the current delivered at the electrode. This, by definition, is wasted spark energy.

[NorthernAveo]

Lower your heart rate, bud. It's bad for your blood pressure.

Oh I am sorry, did you mistake my words for emotion? Does someone being straight forward with you mean that they are upset, mad, angry or in a bad mood. In fact, let me set you straight. I am smiling here happy as can be. So please don't worry about me ok, you just focus your energy on yourself.

First of all, I do use synthetic oil. I use it in everything I operate, including my snow-blower.

I wonder why you use it, yet you argue that there is no benefit???? Wow, talk about a oxymoronic hypocrit.

Who said anything about synthetic oil in a transmission? You must have me confused with someone else... Maybe you should look at the name of the person who posted before demeaning someone with falsehood?

Ah, my bad, there are so many people passing along bad infomation here, it's hard to distinguish one from the crowd here. Please accept my apologies.

Also, noone ever said that platinum plugs waste spark. If you had actually comprehended the post, you would have understood that "wasted spark" is a type of ignition system which delivers a spark to a cylinder which does not utilize it, as well as the cylinder which should be firing at that particular cycle.

There were serious issues with platinum plugs and waste spark ignition systems.
The manufacturer of the plugs "fixed" this, but the fix still limits the ignition system.

The wasted spark eventually fouls the plugs then all the thing northernaveo said occurs.

ORLY!!??? Seems like someone else said that exact thing here and related it to platinum plugs, hmmmmmmm.... Do you read at all?

I agree that BITOG is a great resource for information on oil, but I will not concur that the largest percentage of the data presented in the forum is scientific. The definition of scientific requires that the results be repeatable by any average Joe under controlled circumstances.

LOL! This is the typical ostrich menality. I could provide you with lab results, testing and everythign and you would worm some BS excuse to discredit it. all you like to do is stick you head in teh sand or put your fingers in your ears and yes "LALALALA!" so you can't hear something that doesn't agree with what you are thinking.

Really convenient.

You also admit that platinum is a poorer conductor than copper, correct? Poorer conductivity leads to increased latent losses. Latent losses are essentially wasted electrical energy, burned as heat. The actual value for these losses in far into the microwatts, but that doesn't matter. Platinum (and copper, and any other conductor which does not transfer current with 100% efficiency) does waste spark. This follows in line with principles of conservation of energy. Some of the electrical energy in the conductors is converted to latent heat energy, which means that the amount of current delivered at the head of the spark plug will not equal the current delivered at the electrode. This, by definition, is wasted spark energy.

No, that is called a spark plug's heat range. The heat is displaced through the engine block and platinum plugs will heat up a little more due to the resistance of the platinum BUT they adjust the plaugs internal resistor to compensate for the extra resistance and thus lower the operating heat range.