Trans Flush Question (2009 Aveo5 A/T)

[Thymeclock]

If it were the shop I am at, with that lab report in your hand, I would reimburse you the $25, redo the flush with you watching if you desired, and throw in a couple of free oil changes for your trouble along with a big apology and a thank-you for ratting out a bad employee.

You would, because you are not "Mr. Badwrench". There are bad apples out there, and not everyone in the auto repair business is as honorable as you are. Also, once there has been a wrong done there is a tendency to deny it, make excuses, and cover it up, which is very common in today's world.

Since this is an open discussion, here are some points to consider:

If there is a "corporate conspiracy" to rip you off (ie: they stonewall), it is worth the $25 to know that this business establishment should be avoided at all costs.

Isn't he already convinced of this? He knows he got ripped off and that shop is either incompetent or dishonest, or both.

If they did put in an additive that turned your fluid grey (and I know of no additive that would) you should have the right to have them remove the unauthorized additive with a free flush.

Knowing the dealer is incompetent and/or dishonest, why give Mr. Badwrench a second opportunity?

Short of taking them to court, how will this "right" be enforced? In a court of law the shop owners and technician who turned the fluid gray are considered experts in their field. His status is only that of a layperson. To counter this he would need expert testimony from another automotive expert to refute them. In the real world this isn't going to happen. It's a very hard case to prove, even if he did have a lab test done.

[thankful_ragamuffin]

He knows he got ripped off and that shop is either incompetent or dishonest, or both.

Actually, he can only suppose he got ripped off. What if the few hundred miles he drove was enough for the fluid to be polluted by coolant from a bad trans cooler? As I said earlier, facts talk, B.S. walks. Having proof in form of a written report will show the presence of clutch material if it hasn't been changed.

Also, once there has been a wrong done there is a tendency to deny it, make excuses, and cover it up, which is very common in today's world.

If dukeofmuffins went into the dealer with the attitude he shows in his posts, that is polite and succinct in his explanation of his concerns, I can't imagine any service manager, general manager or dealer principal not addressing his concerns. If he went in with no clinical proof making wild accusations, you are right; the tendency to deny would kick in, along with an escort to the door and an invitation to never return. You seem to believe that everybody at the dealership has worked in concert to rip him off when it was probably one bad employee who, truth be told, ripped off his employer at the same time by collecting pay for a job he didn't do.

Short of taking them to court, how will this "right" be enforced? In a court of law the shop owners and technician who turned the fluid gray are considered experts in their field.

OK, the lab results have as much weight as the owner and technician's opinion, but nobody but a moron will hire a lawyer over a $200 bill. But it does make a good case with the BBB, and possibly with the local police - it is still legally a fraud to charge money for a job you claim to have done but didn't. The lab test costs $25, it is not the price of the Hope diamond.

If the BBB files a case, the business owner has to respond or they get a black mark with the BBB. Most owners will usually give back the customer's money rather than fight it out.

[Thymeclock]

Actually, he can only suppose he got ripped off. What if the few hundred miles he drove was enough for the fluid to be polluted by coolant from a bad trans cooler? As I said earlier, facts talk, B.S. walks. Having proof in form of a written report will show the presence of clutch material if it hasn't been changed.

So he has to try to present paid proof to those who have already screwed him?

If dukeofmuffins went into the dealer with the attitude he shows in his posts, that is polite and succinct in his explanation of his concerns, I can't imagine any service manager, general manager or dealer principal not addressing his concerns.

Oh, but I certainly can. The dealership did it before, and they probably do it routinely. Why? Because it works. Ignorant laymen walk away defeated, because they are not experts. So why would the dealership not continue to do it again?

They probably will listen to his politeness and play him more, with more BS rationalizations about how there are other contributing and unprovable factors in his case. They are far more experienced at this game than he is.

No, he was (and maybe still is) ignorant, and they (and any dealership) can spout official BS excuses to flummox him. Those with a higher rank of expertise, having dominated him before with their BS "expertise" and plausible reason for any eventuality can and will do it again to him. Denial and self-protection are very prominent knee-jerk reactions in established business.

If he went in with no clinical proof making wild accusations, you are right; the tendency to deny would kick in, along with an escort to the door and an invitation to never return. You seem to believe that everybody at the dealership has worked in concert to rip him off when it was probably one bad employee who, truth be told, ripped off his employer at the same time by collecting pay for a job he didn't do.

THE FISH IS ROTTEN FROM THE HEAD DOWN. The "loose cannon" assumption is often cited in business. I don't believe in the "one bad employee" rationalization that is usually used to protect those who run the operation. Such establishments like to blame their unethical behavior on the lowest ranking member of the business, and so they do. The lowest in rank gets to take the heat as a rationalization to cover for all those above them in the system.

OK, the lab results have as much weight as the owner and technician's opinion...

No, they usually don't (unless the potential plaintiff is a skilled lawyer, which he obviously isn't), and as I said, that test alone won't prove his case.

...but nobody but a moron will hire a lawyer over a $200 bill.

Yes, that's EXACTLY it, and that's the bottom line. It's not worth a legal battle, nor is it worth going back to the Mr. Badwrench dealership with 'his hat in his hand' to beg for some consideration from them. That is why his $25 is better spent by him in buying himself a gallon of tranny fluid, learning from this experience to keep his transmission fluid clean and not continuing to "throw good money after bad". Sometimes it is expensive to learn a lesson.

The lab test costs $25, it is not the price of the Hope diamond.

Hey, the guy got fleeced before, and he's still not wise. If he is still a chump, getting another $25 out of him should be easy! But it is HIS money of $25, not yours to imply that it is chump change. You are still recommending how he spends it, but unfortunately that will not benefit his transmission any. You apparently work for a dealership.

If the BBB files a case, the business owner has to respond or they get a black mark with the BBB. Most owners will usually give back the customer's money rather than fight it out.

In theory, perhaps - in the land of hopes and dreams. But in the real world, this isn't going to happen.

[thankful_ragamuffin]

Man, you really have got your knickers in a knot! It is a little open discussion about how to best solve a first world problem, not how to equitably distribute the world's food resources to the hungry!

You apparently work for a dealership.

I don't, but I have made no secret of the fact that I am service manager at an independent automotive repair shop. We fix dealership screw-ups, and yes they are many. But you have made the assumption that I work for a dealership and that I am shilling for dealerships in general - attacking the messenger, not the message - because I offer an alternative to writing off the money already spent with a different approach.

BTW, auto repair is not a "profession". It's merely a trade

No, he was (and maybe still is) ignorant, and they (and any dealership) can spout official BS excuses to flummox him.having dominated him before with their BS "expertise" Denial and self-protection are very prominent knee-jerk reactions in established business.You apparently work for a dealership.

Do you work in law enforcement where everyone you meet is either an idiot or a cretin?

nor is it worth going back to the Mr. Badwrench dealership with 'his hat in his hand' to beg for some consideration from them.

I did not suggest begging - just going in and treating people with the respect you wish to be treated with. If you go in looking for a fight, I am sure you will get one.

THE FISH IS ROTTEN FROM THE HEAD DOWN. The "loose cannon" assumption is often cited in business. I don't believe in the "one bad employee" rationalization that is usually used to protect those who run the operation. Such establishments like to blame their unethical behavior on the lowest ranking member of the business, and so they do. The lowest in rank gets to take the heat as a rationalization to cover for all those above them in the system.

So.... every dealership in the free world is run by the equivalent of the Antichrist and his minions? They all want to rape your mother, swindle you out of every nickle you will ever make and break your car so they can sell you another one? Sounds a little paranoid, don't you think?

Hey, the guy got fleeced before, and he's still not wise. If he is still a chump, getting another $25 out of him should be easy! But it is HIS money of $25, not yours to imply that it is chump change. You are still recommending how he spends it

If it will create peace, I will pay it and let the facts speak for themselves. If it comes up with clutch material in the fluid, I will allow that the fluid was never changed (as I suspect). If it comes up with coolant in the fluid, dukeofmuffins is due a warranty radiator. If it comes up with both, he can argue for a rad and a transmission. He can't lose.

[thankful_ragamuffin]

BTW Thymeclock, if you are ever out my way look me up. I'll gladly buy you a beer and give you a tour of the shop.

[Thymeclock]

Do you work in law enforcement where everyone you meet is either an idiot or a cretin?

Your provocative remarks are not relevant to the discussion.

I did not suggest begging - just going in and treating people with the respect you wish to be treated with. If you go in looking for a fight, I am sure you will get one.

That's fine if he wants to do it. But given all the facts that have occurred so far, this dealership is not likely to admit any wrongdoing and rectify his problem. Past performance is directly related to future expectations.

So.... every dealership in the free world is run by the equivalent of the Antichrist and his minions? They all want to rape your mother, swindle you out of every nickle you will ever make and break your car so they can sell you another one? Sounds a little paranoid, don't you think?

We are not talking about "every dealership in the free world" or any of the other exaggerated, ad hominem crap you are injecting here. We are discussing the result of work that was done by ONE dealership and the customer's dissatisfaction with it.

Sounds like you enjoy putting words into the mouths of others. You have a knack for provocation and gross misrepresentation of those with whom you disagree. That, combined with your other snide remarks, guarantees turning a civil discussion into an argument. Sounds a little aggressive, don't you think?

If it will create peace, I will pay it and let the facts speak for themselves. If it comes up with clutch material in the fluid, I will allow that the fluid was never changed (as I suspect). If it comes up with coolant in the fluid, dukeofmuffins is due a warranty radiator. If it comes up with both, he can argue for a rad and a transmission. He can't lose.

If you pay for it, as you have offered, and you are willing to argue (testify) for him, that may be effective. But short of that, it's not likely to happen.

BTW, you don't sound like much of a peacemaker.

[thankful_ragamuffin]

Again you attack the messenger, not the message. My question about you being in law enforcement was to see if your cynical lack of respect for others (as shown in your quotes) was from your work experience. This "open discussion" is just degenerating and I think we can both agree that we will likely never agree with each other's viewpoint. My offer to pay for the lab test stands as does my offer to buy you a beer if you are ever out this way. It is time to move on and let others continue the thread.

[dukeofmuffins]

Wow this thread sure took on a life of its own. I haven't check it recently, until I got a curious message from someone offering to pay for the lab test. I just want to state my own opinion on the matter, in that eliminating any possibility of other damages or needed repairs was more for my peace of mind. If the test comes back saying it appears the fluid was swapped, just not thoroughly, then I will just do a partial change or two myself to bring it up to my satisfaction. Otherwise, yes, I will go in there, lab results and brother-in-law mechanic in tow. I'm a very amateur at home mechanic. I can change spark plugs, oil, and do my tire rotations and little fixes here and there. I only opted not to touch the trans job because it's something I'd rather not screw up (ok maybe I'm paranoid) and the dealer was already giving me a $300 part for free, because of a minor misunderstanding, that may or may not have actually been my fault. So no I don't think the service manager is inherently trying to pull one over on me. I'm going with good old Occams Razor on this one. Simplest explanation is often the correct one. I'm putting my chips on it being just a half-ass or rushed job. No biggie, if it's that bad, I just want an apology and a thorough job (re)done.

ALL OF THIS ASIDE, the test is worth the 25 bucks for the radiator issue mentioned at the beginning by another helpful poster. I was completely unaware of this potential defect, and being towards the end of my warranty period, I'd rather risk 25 bucks than my radiator and/or transmission.

I do appreciate all the thoughts and comments. I forget automotive work can be such a heated subject sometimes.