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    Thread: TurboTalk -1.6L 1st Gen w/ Intake Air Temperature & Manifold Ambient Pressure Control

    1. #1
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      TurboTalk -1.6L 1st Gen w/ Intake Air Temperature & Manifold Ambient Pressure Control

      I've been looking into turbo's for decades just because I always found them sortof fascinating, but today I was wondering if some forum members who are more technically advanced would be willing to chime in on what would be a best approach to turbo-ing this motor using the stock fuel injectors, and some third party piggy back closed loop control system. Say the goal is to get at least 50% bolt on gains, and to try to stay in the 3-6.5psi boost range. I believe that is a realistic, conservative, target for the project. If using the stock injectors can only deliver 35% bolt on gains, I'm ok with that. I am going to research Holden - best leads I found yet.
      So this would be the smallest turbo that could achieve such a design, I believe if I am correct, an oversized turbo will work just fine, but there will be noticeable turbo lag - something I'd like to avoid. Superchargers are cool too but would be too exepensive for the budget of this project..

      So if anyone would like to offer some discussion I would appreciate it, whether positive, negative, whatever the case. Perhaps I can find a wrecked Sonic LTZ and pull the turbo, header and manifold off it?? Maybe not, these types of decisions would require some advanced techies who've actually turboed stuff, and I know there were several back when I first joined this forum. Its just that I've tried searching the forum about turboes and not very much is showing up, at least from my efforts, i am aware about always searching the forum first before asking questions.. and that leads me back to this basis:

      ex.
      -turbo from some boneyard car installed, space made to fit it etc.
      -diy intake and exhaust manifolds that are ported

      I do believe turboing this motor would not be a waste of time and/or money.. and I bet it still would get decent gas mileage

      So theres a start - any feeback appreciated, forum members, especially anyone who has turboed any kind of Fuel Injected IAT/MAP 4 cylinder DOHC motor before, or anyone who is familiar with PowerCommander5 and MegaSquirt installations on Cars/Motorcycles. Send me a pm if you don't want to post.
      Cheers
      Northguest47



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      Last edited by northguest47; 05-09-2016 at 03:45 AM.

    2. #2
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      so how much 'headroom does the stock injectors on the etec-ii have is the real question' first
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    3. #3
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      well 444 views and not one response! wow. now a 7.2L motor in this car would be nice - i was thinking about an old 444, like close to an ac cobra, an old car that still hangs out - now for those who dont know me, i am lazy and always slow, behind schedule, but i don't talk stupid. i want to turbo this car, and i want to do it 'not over the top', like 'just a bit of turbo'

      anything, am i fishing? yes. look at the car - is it not worthy?
      i'll let those 444 readers decide

    4. #4
      Aveo Whisperer 06T200's Avatar
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      First I've seen your post. I think only you can answer some of those questions, it's up to your wallet and or your abilities. There will be a TON of R&D that will fall upon you to find a setup that will work with sensing boost, the stock Delphi stuff in the car won't do that. I have experience in remapping 'roll your own' EFI but I really never got the benefits I was after, drivability suffered and it was a ton of work. Was not that practical on the street so I wound up selling the car in the end, and learned a valuable lesson in the process. The Aveo is a bit of an uphill battle at least for those of us in the states, all the OE turbo Opel stuff was never available here. So 'bolting' something on will be a feat. If you are a good welder look at hacking a Honda D16 setup, and fabricate your own piping. The challenge is making something that won't crack and fail. If the car is just for fun then you won't need to worry about engineering in reliability, that should save some dough. If you expect to drive it daily, then it will test your abilities and patience. Keep us updated if you take the project on. Nothing is impossible with a huge budget and R&D shop, but it can get old pretty quick. Make sure you size it up well before diving in.

    5. #5
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      Wise words, indeed, 06T200. Thanks for the input! Much appreciated. To be honest the whole Cobalt SS Engine Swap looks super-interesting. So this thread was created just to start a discussion. About me: I'm more of a math geek than a weekend mechanic, I ask stupid questions without feeling stupid, and I got into modding my Aveo (swift+) because of a fender bender and quickly realized it was fun. I'm not a fabricator, but I just 'jumped in' and went straight to MIG welding 2" tubular aluminum. Welding is fun- I now want to weld everything together, and find myself staring at trailers, and garbage bins a lot. What I have learned so far in general about aftermarket turbos: (please note any errors/corrections/clarifications)(wastegatekeeper, blow off)
      The stock compression of the motor is often reduced first by changing out, and upgrading to lighter, stronger cylinders. For this case scenario, the stock cylinders and cam are assumed. Often with Mass Air Flow (MAF) controlled motors, shops can first convert the motor to Temperature/Pressure control (which would require a vast knowledge of ECU modding, tinkering, and piggybacking) and then turboing. As the motor in question is already controlled with pressure and temperature, it can in theory already 'sense' boost when absolute pressure goes above 14psi. What needs to be modified is the fuel delivery system and mapping for the boost scenarios. Fuel injectors are typically replaced with higher flow ones, and/or additional fuel injectors can also be added to operate only in the boost range, such as a third injector. Gasoline powered motors are very sensitive to over-boost situations, and these are to be avoided whereas in diesel motors, over-boost is not as much of a design concern. Over-boost situations can be avoided via the installation of a waste-gate, which if my understanding is correct, essentially caps the boost according to a pre-determined function (at the simplest can be a boost limiter). In most newer cars with little extra space under the hood it is common to re-locate the battery from the engine compartment to free up space (and even moving other components to said free space) for the turbo and manifold.
      The OE turbo Opel knowledge and lore would be incredibly valuable - in so far have yet to research down that route but I have been supplied some links. Since cars were being turboed (sp?) long before Mass Air Flow Sensors were being fitted onto motors for better control of mapping/economy/emissions, it is a hypothesis that given successful physical/mechanical modification of the motor, that a tuning shop would be able to take over the more advanced fuel mapping and tuning of the motor. All this costs money and a budget for such a project can very easily eclipse 'rational' approval. It can be done, and it can be done on a tight budget, but this will require a lot a research and diy fabrication at minimum to even be remotely feasible. I think that summarizes what I've learned so far - really neat stuff. I want to turbo my lawnmower already. (yes i've already done the youtube-a-thon)
      some video candy: Turbo Yamaha WR250X, and Turbo Chevy Sonic
      Last edited by northguest47; 04-10-2016 at 07:01 AM.

    6. #6
      Aveo Whisperer 06T200's Avatar
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      Very cool, sounds like you are having fun learning at least. If you decide on a direction you want to go, please keep us posted on any progress, or questions. If you want to dig deeper into the Opel X16xel stuff, there is an old site 'daewootech.com' and another (defunked for the past few years) where they covered a lot on the OE Opel/Vauxhall/Holden turbo configurations that were common over the pond to get some engineering ideas. You may be able to sort out what heads/blocks/manifolds fit what and if any cross over to the Gmdat F16D at least, or what swaps have been done if any.

    7. The Following User Says Thank You to 06T200 For This Useful Post:

      AndrewButler05 (06-07-2016)

    8. #7
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      Above ^ duly noted. I figure Ill try to post something at least every two months on this. Some last additions to this thought experiment are that a small inter-cooler will be designed in, as well as an oil scavenge pump and blow off valve. It is assumed for now that the stock radiator is up to the task. The next direction is to 1)narrow a list of specific turbos 2)narrow a list of manifolds to modify 3) injector upgrades list and piggyback controller choices.

    9. #8
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      i expect to drive it daily, or weekly, 06T200 turbo tallk, so i am hoping to keep the stock head, and use beefy flanges. should be pretty reliable, might not look the greatest though
      Last edited by northguest47; 02-12-2016 at 11:20 PM.

    10. #9
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      oops, i thought my posts were edited, turns out they weren't..edited posts below
      daily driver
      Last edited by northguest47; 04-10-2016 at 09:54 PM. Reason: forum rules

    11. #10
      What do you mean there's no turbo? northguest47's Avatar
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      so anyways, to summarize, the link to the yamaha wr250r turbo made by mpfab is here.. look 'em up
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFXZ...&nohtml5=False

      the second link was about an old chevy ltz style sonic with big turbo 300hp
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQX...&nohtml5=False


      So i'm choosing the Borg Warner EFR 6258 turbo, as long as it 'fits'. if it fits in the Sonic, logic dictates it should be able to be stuffed into the E-tec II cavity. I hypothesize that the horsepower could very well be in the 300rwhp, and the torque around 250ft pounds. I am told these numbers are pretty impressive for a 2600lb car. Dunno myself, maybe I can gut 200lbs off the car too.




      Last edited by northguest47; 04-10-2016 at 09:55 PM.

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