Trans Flush Question (2009 Aveo5 A/T)

I had an odd experience with my neighborhood dealer, and it's been bugging me for a while, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. As I was getting ready for a 6 month deployment a few months ago, I figured it was a good time to swap out the trans fluid, in addition to the usual oil change and storage prep. I know the fluid is supposedly a "long life" variety, but it was looking pretty cruddy (sitting around 50k miles atm). While in the dealer service office, I noticed they had been overtaken by the B&G company and it's line of services. I inquired as to the type of fluid they would be using, and was assured it would be a full type IV fluid swap, not a "universal" fluid. It seemed a bit "too good to be true" since type IV is more pricey than others, but it was a direct question, so I couldn't imagine a direct lie in return. Later that day I returned to pick up the car, and popped the hood in the lot to check their handiwork. Not that I didn't trust them, I just hadn't seen fresh trans fluid since I bought the thing 3-4 years ago, and was curious. I was a bit surprised to see it was still grey. I couldn't tell if it was actually better than before in terms of clarity, since I didn't have a "before" sample to look at. I thought maybe the fluid in the dipstick tube was nasty and maybe clouding up what I was looking at. So I drove a few miles to fill-up, but the AT fluid still looked the same. Even a few hundred miles later, it still looked the same. Now I'm not the unrealistic sort, I knew be BRIGHT NEON RED, but I thought maybe a dark red wasn't an unreasonable expectation. Or am I completely misunderstanding fluid swaps/flushes? I emailed the dealer about my concern, and they replied saying that it was a detergent product used during the flush that somehow darkens the subsequently added fluid. Had I know that, I wouldn't have let them do the swap. As controversial as flushes are, I certainly didn't want anything BUT trans fluid in there. But it was done, so that was that. Still that answer didn't sit well, so I emailed B&G products directly. I was surprised to hear back, and from the sounds of it, they provide their own line of synthetic fluids, some of which are a darker red, and might appear grey if they intermingle with even a slight amount of old fluid. This raises the question of: did they not use true type IV fluid like I asked? Suppose I will have to ask to see the container next time I'm in. Still, how can a flushed transmission's fluid not show ANY red at all? How then can a customer know the service was done, barring a lab test (last resort)? I know I didn't pose an exact question in this, but I wondering what people think. The more think back myself, I'm finding myself not wanting to trust that dealer anymore. I'll be due for the ol' timing belt job soon, and I don't feel like I trust these guys right now.

Note: I'm not asking about the merits of trans fluid swaps, nor the pro/cons of swaps/partial changes/pan drops/etc. With the age of my transmission, I reckoned the risk of damage due to fluid exchange was minimal, and that fresh fluid being in there for 6 months of storage seemed a good idea.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. I love this forum!

That it's an '09 makes me wonder... There appears to be an issue regarding coolant and transmission fluid mixing together because the tanks are, well, both on the site of the radiator and are basically one big plastic tank divided in half.
http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/f108/...n-fluid-15423/

What does your coolant look like?

Well that's a scary thought! Wasn't aware that was an even an issue with 09s. I'm still out in the desert for a few months, but I don't recall the coolant looking bad. It looked, um, "coolant-y"? A clear, maybe slightly yellowed fluid (that could have been the reservoir plastic). No glistening on the top, like you'd see from oils floating on top. Also had the radiator coolant drained and filled at the same time, dealer didn't mention anything off about it. If they were up for some money I'd think they would point out a problem like that.

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Originally Posted by dukeofmuffins

I had an odd experience with my neighborhood dealer, and it's been bugging me for a while, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. As I was getting ready for a 6 month deployment a few months ago, I figured it was a good time to swap out the trans fluid, in addition to the usual oil change and storage prep. I know the fluid is supposedly a "long life" variety, but it was looking pretty cruddy (sitting around 50k miles atm).

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If the fluid looks cruddy it's long past due for a change. :sad:

I suggest you read this thread click here for a better understanding of transmissions and fluid.

An automatic transmission is THE most expensive mechanical part of any car to repair. Dealers and even manufacturers will tell you the fluid in it never needs to be changed. Unscrupulous repair shops will tell you any BS story that they might con you with - after taking your money. You know little or nothing and they are pros at lying through their teeth. The will exploit your lack of knowledge, because there is monetary gain in it.

Transmission fluid should look bright red. Not grey. Not pink, Not brown. Sure, your transmission will continue to function even if the fluid is worn out or degraded. Sooner or later it will fail. Any excuses and rationalizations made about the color and condition of the fluid, no matter who is saying them, are absolute nonsense.

It's easy to do a partial drain and refill yourself if the fluid looks deficient - it's as easy as draining and changing your oil. But people believe the BS and hokum that they are told by supposedly higher authorities, because they don't know any better. And so they wait until it is too late. Who profits from that?

The Aisin (made in Japan) automatic transaxle on all Aveos is apparently a very dependable (although ineffieicent) unit. Keep the fluid fresh and clean, and your tranny will probably last the life of your car without needing repair.

You got screwed duke. When I change tranny fluid it comes out brownish. Whats on the dipstick when I'm done is blood red, just like it comes out of the bottle. Grey is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by dukeofmuffins

... How then can a customer know the service was done, barring a lab test ...

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IMO, the very simple answer to that question is you can't know. B&G is telling you the additive they use can turn the red fluid grey. How can anyone (who is not a chemist or in the petroleum business) say that is not the truth?
Yes, it smells like fish and may be total BS, but how can anyone who is not in that profession know for certain?

For $25 plus shipping, you can have Blackstone Labs analyze this tranny oil (there are probably other labs who also do this same thing). That report should come back reading that the fluid is basically in like new condition. So if the report comes back looking like old fluid, it means either they stirred up a bunch of nasties with the flush and didn't clear them out, or else they didn't do the work at all.
And (if it did come back bad), with a negative report like that in hand, even their best dealer dance couldn't get them off the hook.
JMHO, but without a lab report, it's all just speculation.

Sounds like what I expected. Guess I'll send off a sample to Blackstone when I get back. I actually have a sample kit, I just ran outta time to do stuff before I deployed. Since I've put a few miles on it since the 'change', the testing should be able to identify if the radiator is leaking as well. I have just enough time left on the warranty to get that replaced too. The tranny is shifting smooth still, no burnt smells from the fluid, so with any luck, no permanent damage is done. But hey, if there is, they can replace that too :D If the radiator is leaking into the trans fluid I'll definitely demand a thorough transmission check. I feel like if I got completely lied to about a service, with irrefutable evidence (the lab report), they'll be hard pressed to refuse any request.

I appreciate the thoughts guys, I'll definitely resurrect this thread when I get the results.

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Originally Posted by avguy

IMO, the very simple answer to that question is you can't know. B&G is telling you the additive they use can turn the red fluid grey. How can anyone (who is not a chemist or in the petroleum business) say that is not the truth?
Yes, it smells like fish and may be total BS, but how can anyone who is not in that profession know for certain?

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See? That's how the game is played. By raising doubt in your mind. That's the big mind F--k: Who are we to know? Who are we to judge?

BTW, auto repair is not a "profession". It's merely a trade - and it's often a dirty business, in more ways than one.

I will say it is not the truth, and if you don't like my opinion which is based upon experience, I don't care whether you agree or not.

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For $25 plus shipping, you can have Blackstone Labs analyze this tranny oil (there are probably other labs who also do this same thing). That report should come back reading that the fluid is basically in like new condition. So if the report comes back looking like old fluid, it means either they stirred up a bunch of nasties with the flush and didn't clear them out, or else they didn't do the work at all.
And (if it did come back bad), with a negative report like that in hand, even their best dealer dance couldn't get them off the hook.
JMHO, but without a lab report, it's all just speculation.

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Can you be like a smart fish, and spit the hook out of your mouth before you get hauled in again? Or do you now want to be hit up for another $25, in addition to what you've already spent? Even if it did prove something, at this point, what difference will it make?

Regarding transmission fluid, all you need to do is to use your eyes and your nose to realize the truth. Or you can throw away another $25 (plus shipping... :evil3:). The choice is yours.

So Thymeclock, to summarize your last post: the OP was given a hose job by the dealer, and he should just suck it up, roll over and play dead. Now that's a bit odd, because you've been known to rail against GM maybe once or twice. So when someone comes along who may want to actually try fighting back, you say "Even if it did prove something, at this point, what difference will it make?"
So, bottom line, let's all scream against GM and the dealers, but no one should ever try to do anything about what's happening to us.
Well, the OP already indicated he's up for a fight, so to him I'll say :thumbup:
And you Thymeclock can feel free to rip up this post, because that's certainly something you have proven yourself to be a master of.

Calm down here, that's not what Thymeclock's intention was. The fluid clearly didn't get changed, and so there's no reason to test it, and not much can be done about it other than actually changing it. He (and myself for that matter) simply failed to find any reasoning in spending $25 for some lab to tell us what we already know! Just pissing money away.

Bottom line would be to just change the flippin fluid before that nice transmission has anything happen to it!

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Originally Posted by RicochetRandy

Calm down here, that's not what Thymeclock's intention was. The fluid clearly didn't get changed, and so there's no reason to test it, and not much can be done about it other than actually changing it. He (and myself for that matter) simply failed to find any reasoning in spending $25 for some lab to tell us what we already know! Just pissing money away.

Bottom line would be to just change the flippin fluid before that nice transmission has anything happen to it!

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Thanks for saying this so well. I could not have said it better. ;)
It's encouraging to see that not everyone is lacking in reading and comprehension skills. :study:

Well being as I foolishly left the dealer and drove a few hundred miles before deciding to research the matter, they could easily tell me to piss off. Granted there's no reason that such a short drive should wear out supposedly new fluid, but on my own, I have to way to prove I didn't do something silly to it myself. So the way I see my options:

-buy a whole new flush (or fluid change) from someone else, for $150-200 (more if I demand OEM fluid) Not much cheaper to DIY
-$25 test to prove CHEMICALLY and irrefutably that a change was not done, or was only partially done, and that no other factors contributed to the greying, then get the dealer to redo all services, under my supervision, for free, under threat of legal action

Bonus to doing the test is verifying that the radiator/transcooler is not leaking, which I could get repaired while I still have warranty. If something like that exists and caused even slight damage to the trans, I could argue to get that replaced too. Granted the warranty company won't want to suck up that expense, but once again, with the evidence in hand, they'd have no choice but to inspect it and verify the problem.

So in short, no, I don't see a $25 lab test as a waste of money. While I appreciate the "tough love" and admit I was stupid to have left in the first place, well we live and we learn. I'm going to have to deal with the situation as it stands.

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Originally Posted by dukeofmuffins

So the way I see my options:

-buy a whole new flush (or fluid change) from someone else, for $150-200 (more if I demand OEM fluid) Not much cheaper to DIY

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You are misinformed. You can do a drain and refill yourself and it will cost relatively little - for only the cost of the fluid itself. If I recall correctly, doing a drain and refill will use about 2 quarts.

For $25 you can buy a gallon of ATF at Advance auto. Click here. At least you won't be 'throwing good money after bad'. It can only help, and it certainly can't hurt. ;)

A far as I can tell the only place to buy the OEM fluid is the dealer. There is no Type-IV direct equivalent. Sure, every store sells multi-trans compatible fluids, but I have no way of knowing if they truly are equivalent in performance and protection. It could just be a matter of selling a "unique" fluid at an unneeded markup, but I'd rather not experiment on my own car. So the plan was to just let the dealer do things with the proper fluid, and then all the fore-mentioned questions arose. I suppose I could just do the drain and fill a few times over a couple months using the OEM fluid from the parts counter, and yes, potentially save. But should I still be worried about the transcooler/radiator leak issue? Is it really that common? I would think a lab test could spot the trace amounts of mixing before it got bad enough for your eyes to spot it. Or would any amount of mixing be that noticeable? I would think you would see "oil" spots floating in the radiator reservoir if that was the case. If that is common problem I want to get it repaired while I have warranty left.

Search google maps for GM Service centers in your area. Find the one with the best reviews. Tell them nothing of your other visit, only that your tranny fluid is grey and your concerned about a blown head gasket and would like it checked under warranty. They should be able to do a compression check. If they have to do the head gasket, they will have to change the fluid. If they say its ok, you should be fine.

As for getting tranny fluid, I would just use Valvoline Max Life Dex/MERC ATF, but if you really want the best you can have the get Royal Purple MAX ATF. At $15 a quart its expensive as hell, and the highest quality fluid you can get. Of course the cheapest ATF at the gas station would probably be good enough. Tranny fluid (except fords and that goofy type F fluid) just isn't the complicated. For the love of god, don't let the dealer rape you for a GM logoed bottle of cheap tranny fluid.

There is no need to drain and refill multiple times. When you drain the tranny its all gonna come out. Sure there might be a few drops of old left, but a few drops in a couple of quarts just won't make a perceptible difference.

Your attitude toward all of this is one I see so often and it drives me nuts. Dealers make auto work sound so hard and complicated that people are scared to do the work themselves. So they pay a mechanic to do a simple job. To the mechanic makes the 16 year old who doesn't care do the easy stuff while the do something more challenging, and its gets done completely wrong or not at all. The owner frets that if the dealer messed it up, it must REALLY be hard. So they keep going to the dealer. When they have the time and the money. Things are missed, parts wear, and cars die. So they buy a new one from the dealer with a warranty to save money. Meanwhile those of us who change every fluid in the car in 2 hours one Saturday a year are getting 400k miles out of used cars we pick up for a few grand. Don't perpetuate the cycle. Make the dealer (ok a different dealer) do what they owe you, and handle the easy stuff yourself.

LOL, just found this: ATF-0T4 Genuine AISIN Toyota Premium Automatic Transmission Fluid : Amazon.com : Automotive
For $18.25 shipped you can buy 2 quarts of type IV by Aisin, the company who designed and build the transmission. That's more OEM than the GM fluid!

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Originally Posted by gothstone

As for getting tranny fluid, I would just use Valvoline Max Life Dex/MERC ATF, but if you really want the best you can have the get Royal Purple MAX ATF. At $15 a quart its expensive as hell, and the highest quality fluid you can get.

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The "quality" isn't any different. It is made to conform to a standard. At $15 per quart you would be paying for a fancier label on the bottle.

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Of course the cheapest ATF at the gas station would probably be good enough. Tranny fluid (except fords and that goofy type F fluid) just isn't the complicated.

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No, but it has to be Dexron III at the very least. Not all tranny fluid is the same. It does have to be backward compatible to conform to the manufacturer's original specs. The transaxle in all Aveos was originally designed to use Dexron III. The Dexron line of fluids that followed was upgraded to be a partially synthetic fluid. GM no longer supports Dexron III because of corporate interests.

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There is no need to drain and refill multiple times. When you drain the tranny its all gonna come out. Sure there might be a few drops of old left, but a few drops in a couple of quarts just won't make a perceptible difference.

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Not true. When you drain the pan you are removing only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire fluid capacity of the transmission, not including the torque converter. This is why you will need to drain and refill the fluid every few months until the fluid is looking healthy again. It's like doing a blood transfusion - the fluid will need to circulate through the system. Although you are mixing new fluid with the old, eventually this will remove the impurities in the fluid and improve the overall condition of the total volume of liquid. Unlike motor oil which inevitably becomes fouled through use and often drained and discarded, transmission fluid must be kept clean and should look clean. It's essentially a sealed hydraulic system. In a perfect world it wouldn't become degraded. But when it does, it needs to be changed.

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Your attitude toward all of this is one I see so often and it drives me nuts. Dealers make auto work sound so hard and complicated that people are scared to do the work themselves. So they pay a mechanic to do a simple job. To the mechanic makes the 16 year old who doesn't care do the easy stuff while the do something more challenging, and its gets done completely wrong or not at all. The owner frets that if the dealer messed it up, it must REALLY be hard. So they keep going to the dealer. When they have the time and the money. Things are missed, parts wear, and cars die. So they buy a new one from the dealer with a warranty to save money. Meanwhile those of us who change every fluid in the car in 2 hours one Saturday a year are getting 400k miles out of used cars we pick up for a few grand. Don't perpetuate the cycle. Make the dealer (ok a different dealer) do what they owe you, and handle the easy stuff yourself.

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Your last paragraph is a pretty good summation of it. :thumbup:

Thymeclock - The Royal Purple line was supposed to be snarkey not serious, guess it came off wrong. RP is the crap all the racers love and over priced as hell. But I find it super funny that its still cheaper than the GM fluid from the dealer.

As for rating, is it still possible to get anything that doesn't meet Dex3?

I had NO idea that much fluid was left in the transaxle after a change, that's nuts! Guess I'll start doing cycles of change, drive, and re-change. Ran the numbers though and with a total capacity (had to look it up) of 5.9qt, even if your getting half the fluid each time, and a perfect mixture of old an new fluid, it would take 10 drain, mix and refill cycles before you have less than a tsp of old fluid left. :pale:

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Originally Posted by gothstone

Thymeclock - The Royal Purple line was supposed to be snarkey not serious, guess it came off wrong. RP is the crap all the racers love and over priced as hell. But I find it super funny that its still cheaper than the GM fluid from the dealer.

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Ah, it's tongue in cheek, eh? :p

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As for rating, is it still possible to get anything that doesn't meet Dex3?

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I don't know. But if somebody doesn't read the bottle and adds a type that isn't Dexron it will probably cause problems.

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I had NO idea that much fluid was left in the transaxle after a change, that's nuts! Guess I'll start doing cycles of change, drive, and re-change. Ran the numbers though and with a total capacity (had to look it up) of 5.9qt, even if your getting half the fluid each time, and a perfect mixture of old an new fluid, it would take 10 drain, mix and refill cycles before you have less than a tsp of old fluid left.

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In my personal experience you will see a big improvement after 4 or 5 changes. (Unless the soft components in the transmission are failing, in which case the fluid will be brown no matter how many times you change the fluid.)

As I've said in other threads on this topic, think of it as cheap insurance. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." It's a hell of a lot cheaper than needing a tranny rebuild! ;)

As a Service Manager at an auto shop, a member of the profession or "mere trade", it is about time to weigh in here. Dukeofmuffins, spend the $25 for the lab tests. Once you have conclusive proof, approach the service manager as politely and succinctly as your posts have been. Remember, facts talk and B.S. walks. I will assume at this stage there is no "corporate conspiracy" to rip you off, but a lazy/dishonest employee who got paid for doing a job they did not do. As a service manager, I would want to know. The lab report stops a "he said/she said" argument with actual fact. It would also give the manager the leverage to ask for said employee's resignation (in today's society firing somebody can be legally difficult). If it were the shop I am at, with that lab report in your hand, I would reimburse you the $25, redo the flush with you watching if you desired, and throw in a couple of free oil changes for your trouble along with a big apology and a thank-you for ratting out a bad employee. If there is a "corporate conspiracy" to rip you off (ie: they stonewall), it is worth the $25 to know that this business establishment should be avoided at all costs. As for drain and fill, the idea is to have clean fluid, not semi-clean fluid. 4-5 drain and fills will use a minimum of 8-10 quarts of fluid, probably more, and should include a new filter EACH time, and you would still have fluid that is not 100% clean. Total your costs for that versus my shop's $129.95 flush where fluid and filter are extra. Probably less than what you spent, you get 100% clean fluid, and a receipt to show GM if your trans needs a warranty rebuild. If they did put in an additive that turned your fluid grey (and I know of no additive that would) you should have the right to have them remove the unauthorized additive with a free flush. My feeling is that you should find a good independent shop that pays their employees a decent hourly wage, no commission or flat rate. The flat rate system encourages techs to take shortcuts to earn a living wage and a commission on parts and service work lets lazy employees steal from customers ...but that is another rant. Good luck and keep us updated.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

If it were the shop I am at, with that lab report in your hand, I would reimburse you the $25, redo the flush with you watching if you desired, and throw in a couple of free oil changes for your trouble along with a big apology and a thank-you for ratting out a bad employee.

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You would, because you are not "Mr. Badwrench". :iconbiggrin: There are bad apples out there, and not everyone in the auto repair business is as honorable as you are. :sad: Also, once there has been a wrong done there is a tendency to deny it, make excuses, and cover it up, which is very common in today's world.

Since this is an open discussion, here are some points to consider:

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If there is a "corporate conspiracy" to rip you off (ie: they stonewall), it is worth the $25 to know that this business establishment should be avoided at all costs.

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Isn't he already convinced of this? He knows he got ripped off and that shop is either incompetent or dishonest, or both.

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If they did put in an additive that turned your fluid grey (and I know of no additive that would) you should have the right to have them remove the unauthorized additive with a free flush.

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Knowing the dealer is incompetent and/or dishonest, why give Mr. Badwrench a second opportunity?

Short of taking them to court, how will this "right" be enforced? In a court of law the shop owners and technician who turned the fluid gray are considered experts in their field. His status is only that of a layperson. To counter this he would need expert testimony from another automotive expert to refute them. In the real world this isn't going to happen. It's a very hard case to prove, even if he did have a lab test done.

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He knows he got ripped off and that shop is either incompetent or dishonest, or both.

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Actually, he can only suppose he got ripped off. What if the few hundred miles he drove was enough for the fluid to be polluted by coolant from a bad trans cooler? As I said earlier, facts talk, B.S. walks. Having proof in form of a written report will show the presence of clutch material if it hasn't been changed.

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Also, once there has been a wrong done there is a tendency to deny it, make excuses, and cover it up, which is very common in today's world.

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If dukeofmuffins went into the dealer with the attitude he shows in his posts, that is polite and succinct in his explanation of his concerns, I can't imagine any service manager, general manager or dealer principal not addressing his concerns. If he went in with no clinical proof making wild accusations, you are right; the tendency to deny would kick in, along with an escort to the door and an invitation to never return. You seem to believe that everybody at the dealership has worked in concert to rip him off when it was probably one bad employee who, truth be told, ripped off his employer at the same time by collecting pay for a job he didn't do.

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Short of taking them to court, how will this "right" be enforced? In a court of law the shop owners and technician who turned the fluid gray are considered experts in their field.

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OK, the lab results have as much weight as the owner and technician's opinion, but nobody but a moron will hire a lawyer over a $200 bill. But it does make a good case with the BBB, and possibly with the local police - it is still legally a fraud to charge money for a job you claim to have done but didn't. The lab test costs $25, it is not the price of the Hope diamond.

If the BBB files a case, the business owner has to respond or they get a black mark with the BBB. Most owners will usually give back the customer's money rather than fight it out.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

Actually, he can only suppose he got ripped off. What if the few hundred miles he drove was enough for the fluid to be polluted by coolant from a bad trans cooler? As I said earlier, facts talk, B.S. walks. Having proof in form of a written report will show the presence of clutch material if it hasn't been changed.

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So he has to try to present paid proof to those who have already screwed him?

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If dukeofmuffins went into the dealer with the attitude he shows in his posts, that is polite and succinct in his explanation of his concerns, I can't imagine any service manager, general manager or dealer principal not addressing his concerns.

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Oh, but I certainly can. The dealership did it before, and they probably do it routinely. Why? Because it works. Ignorant laymen walk away defeated, because they are not experts. So why would the dealership not continue to do it again?

They probably will listen to his politeness and play him more, with more BS rationalizations about how there are other contributing and unprovable factors in his case. They are far more experienced at this game than he is.

No, he was (and maybe still is) ignorant, and they (and any dealership) can spout official BS excuses to flummox him. Those with a higher rank of expertise, having dominated him before with their BS "expertise" and plausible reason for any eventuality can and will do it again to him. Denial and self-protection are very prominent knee-jerk reactions in established business.

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If he went in with no clinical proof making wild accusations, you are right; the tendency to deny would kick in, along with an escort to the door and an invitation to never return. You seem to believe that everybody at the dealership has worked in concert to rip him off when it was probably one bad employee who, truth be told, ripped off his employer at the same time by collecting pay for a job he didn't do.

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THE FISH IS ROTTEN FROM THE HEAD DOWN. The "loose cannon" assumption is often cited in business. I don't believe in the "one bad employee" rationalization that is usually used to protect those who run the operation. Such establishments like to blame their unethical behavior on the lowest ranking member of the business, and so they do. The lowest in rank gets to take the heat as a rationalization to cover for all those above them in the system.

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OK, the lab results have as much weight as the owner and technician's opinion...

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No, they usually don't (unless the potential plaintiff is a skilled lawyer, which he obviously isn't), and as I said, that test alone won't prove his case.

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...but nobody but a moron will hire a lawyer over a $200 bill.

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Yes, that's EXACTLY it, and that's the bottom line. It's not worth a legal battle, nor is it worth going back to the Mr. Badwrench dealership with 'his hat in his hand' to beg for some consideration from them. That is why his $25 is better spent by him in buying himself a gallon of tranny fluid, learning from this experience to keep his transmission fluid clean and not continuing to "throw good money after bad". Sometimes it is expensive to learn a lesson.

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The lab test costs $25, it is not the price of the Hope diamond.

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Hey, the guy got fleeced before, and he's still not wise. If he is still a chump, getting another $25 out of him should be easy! But it is HIS money of $25, not yours to imply that it is chump change. You are still recommending how he spends it, but unfortunately that will not benefit his transmission any. You apparently work for a dealership.

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If the BBB files a case, the business owner has to respond or they get a black mark with the BBB. Most owners will usually give back the customer's money rather than fight it out.

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In theory, perhaps - in the land of hopes and dreams. But in the real world, this isn't going to happen.

Man, you really have got your knickers in a knot! It is a little open discussion about how to best solve a first world problem, not how to equitably distribute the world's food resources to the hungry!

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You apparently work for a dealership.

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I don't, but I have made no secret of the fact that I am service manager at an independent automotive repair shop. We fix dealership screw-ups, and yes they are many. But you have made the assumption that I work for a dealership and that I am shilling for dealerships in general - attacking the messenger, not the message - because I offer an alternative to writing off the money already spent with a different approach.

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BTW, auto repair is not a "profession". It's merely a trade

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No, he was (and maybe still is) ignorant, and they (and any dealership) can spout official BS excuses to flummox him.having dominated him before with their BS "expertise" Denial and self-protection are very prominent knee-jerk reactions in established business.You apparently work for a dealership.

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Do you work in law enforcement where everyone you meet is either an idiot or a cretin?

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nor is it worth going back to the Mr. Badwrench dealership with 'his hat in his hand' to beg for some consideration from them.

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I did not suggest begging - just going in and treating people with the respect you wish to be treated with. If you go in looking for a fight, I am sure you will get one.

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THE FISH IS ROTTEN FROM THE HEAD DOWN. The "loose cannon" assumption is often cited in business. I don't believe in the "one bad employee" rationalization that is usually used to protect those who run the operation. Such establishments like to blame their unethical behavior on the lowest ranking member of the business, and so they do. The lowest in rank gets to take the heat as a rationalization to cover for all those above them in the system.

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So.... every dealership in the free world is run by the equivalent of the Antichrist and his minions? They all want to rape your mother, swindle you out of every nickle you will ever make and break your car so they can sell you another one? Sounds a little paranoid, don't you think?

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Hey, the guy got fleeced before, and he's still not wise. If he is still a chump, getting another $25 out of him should be easy! But it is HIS money of $25, not yours to imply that it is chump change. You are still recommending how he spends it

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If it will create peace, I will pay it and let the facts speak for themselves. If it comes up with clutch material in the fluid, I will allow that the fluid was never changed (as I suspect). If it comes up with coolant in the fluid, dukeofmuffins is due a warranty radiator. If it comes up with both, he can argue for a rad and a transmission. He can't lose.

BTW Thymeclock, if you are ever out my way look me up. I'll gladly buy you a beer and give you a tour of the shop.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

Do you work in law enforcement where everyone you meet is either an idiot or a cretin?

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Your provocative remarks are not relevant to the discussion.

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I did not suggest begging - just going in and treating people with the respect you wish to be treated with. If you go in looking for a fight, I am sure you will get one.

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That's fine if he wants to do it. But given all the facts that have occurred so far, this dealership is not likely to admit any wrongdoing and rectify his problem. Past performance is directly related to future expectations.

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So.... every dealership in the free world is run by the equivalent of the Antichrist and his minions? They all want to rape your mother, swindle you out of every nickle you will ever make and break your car so they can sell you another one? Sounds a little paranoid, don't you think?

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We are not talking about "every dealership in the free world" or any of the other exaggerated, ad hominem crap you are injecting here. We are discussing the result of work that was done by ONE dealership and the customer's dissatisfaction with it.

Sounds like you enjoy putting words into the mouths of others. You have a knack for provocation and gross misrepresentation of those with whom you disagree. That, combined with your other snide remarks, guarantees turning a civil discussion into an argument. Sounds a little aggressive, don't you think?

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If it will create peace, I will pay it and let the facts speak for themselves. If it comes up with clutch material in the fluid, I will allow that the fluid was never changed (as I suspect). If it comes up with coolant in the fluid, dukeofmuffins is due a warranty radiator. If it comes up with both, he can argue for a rad and a transmission. He can't lose.

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If you pay for it, as you have offered, and you are willing to argue (testify) for him, that may be effective. But short of that, it's not likely to happen.

BTW, you don't sound like much of a peacemaker.

Again you attack the messenger, not the message. My question about you being in law enforcement was to see if your cynical lack of respect for others (as shown in your quotes) was from your work experience. This "open discussion" is just degenerating and I think we can both agree that we will likely never agree with each other's viewpoint. My offer to pay for the lab test stands as does my offer to buy you a beer if you are ever out this way. It is time to move on and let others continue the thread.

Wow this thread sure took on a life of its own. I haven't check it recently, until I got a curious message from someone offering to pay for the lab test. I just want to state my own opinion on the matter, in that eliminating any possibility of other damages or needed repairs was more for my peace of mind. If the test comes back saying it appears the fluid was swapped, just not thoroughly, then I will just do a partial change or two myself to bring it up to my satisfaction. Otherwise, yes, I will go in there, lab results and brother-in-law mechanic in tow. I'm a very amateur at home mechanic. I can change spark plugs, oil, and do my tire rotations and little fixes here and there. I only opted not to touch the trans job because it's something I'd rather not screw up (ok maybe I'm paranoid) and the dealer was already giving me a $300 part for free, because of a minor misunderstanding, that may or may not have actually been my fault. So no I don't think the service manager is inherently trying to pull one over on me. I'm going with good old Occams Razor on this one. Simplest explanation is often the correct one. I'm putting my chips on it being just a half-ass or rushed job. No biggie, if it's that bad, I just want an apology and a thorough job (re)done.

ALL OF THIS ASIDE, the test is worth the 25 bucks for the radiator issue mentioned at the beginning by another helpful poster. I was completely unaware of this potential defect, and being towards the end of my warranty period, I'd rather risk 25 bucks than my radiator and/or transmission.

I do appreciate all the thoughts and comments. I forget automotive work can be such a heated subject sometimes.