2004 Aveo Issue

[Darsen]

Well the Fit hit the shan...

Got the bill to the tune of $850



Kicker, they replaced a fuel injector without asking for my consent. To the tune of $300. NICE!

I have filed a complaint with the Massachusetts Attorney General to see if I can get this sorted out.

I was told yesterday that they would charge me only for the head gasket kit and a "couple of hours of labor", then I get this bill today.

Floored... WOOSH... there goes my whole car repair budget if I have to pay this.

[Darsen]

This has now progressed to this point:

Went in to disputed the bill with the owner and he screamed and yelled at me for over an hour and a half about how much of a deal they were cutting me etc...

They basically told me that the reason that my car is in this condition is because the warranty replacement head was "cam'ed incorrectly or it has bad lifters."

I was able to get them to put in a statement on the bill stating their diagnosis for the issue and that if the valves were bent and that caused the issue that they would re-assess and fix it on their dime.

I paid the bill in full, had it towed to another mechanic far away from this shop and had it diagnosed.

I was told: # 2 and #4 Cyl do have low compression.. as well as #1 and #3. The tech told me the car basically has zero compression across ALL cylinders. He also told me that it looks like they also re-used the head bolts to put the new head back on. Most likely they did not time the vehicle or put it back together correctly.

I am currently in touch with an automotive forensics firm. The guy I spoke with is an ASE Certified Master Mechanic as well as master machinist and a number of other things. Super knowledgeable and willing to help.

He told me that he could go to the business and take pictures by inserting a micro camera into the spark plug holes to see if the pistons have the telltale signs of kissing the valves, if so, the timing was done incorrectly.

The fact that, when the head was put back on, I was told there was full great compression across all 4 cylinders, it ran well for 10 to 15 minutes then started skipping again leads them to believe that there was an initial tooth skip on the timing and maybe when/if they revved the motor to try to smooth it out, it mashed the rest of the valves.

Anyway, I will be trying to go back to the shop that did the work and see what resolution I can get.

PLEASE, let me know your advice. I don't want them to touch my car again, also the shop that has my car right now has told me they don't feel comfortable fixing that motor because they are unsure of what damage has been done to the block and other parts. They are telling me they can put a new "low mileage" motor into it for around $1,500.

Should I tell the other shop that they are on the hook for the $1,500 or is that a pipe dream?

Your feedback would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Darsen

[Darsen]

Anybody? Looking for advice and I am at the end of my rope with this issue.

Thanks!

[jimzdat]

Well, I'm no lawyer, so can't help you on the legal aspects - but I am a mechanic, and have my own ASE certification (not master, though).

One thing that raises a red flag to me on your recent post:
They basically told me that the reason that my car is in this condition is because the warranty replacement head was "cam'ed incorrectly or it has bad lifters."

This (IMO) is a sign of poor workmanship - I don't care if I purchase a replacement head directly from the Chevy dealer; it's not going to go back on the engine without the timing being verified - twice.

It sounds very much like this vehicle was "fixed" by a shop that didn't take the time to do the job properly:

- The majority of modern engines use torque-to-yield head bolts, that must be replaced every time. Failure to do so is just irresponsible.
- Compression and leakdown testing is a basic function, and should have been one of the first things done to troubleshoot the issue.
- Verification of timing should have been right at the top of the list as well.
- Replacing an injector (and the accompanying labor) without informing the customer is a shady practice, and may be a violation of consumer protection laws.


From my personal experience - I own a 04 Aveo as well:
- Bought it with a broken timing belt, so I knew it would need significant work
- Pulled head, scored 16 for 16 on bent valves
- Head went to machine shop; all new valves, grind and lap, surface head - total cost around 200 bucks
- New gasket set, timing set, and head bolts - another couple hundred bucks
- Did all the labor myself, so that's a wash for me

Car now runs great

Questions I would have for the shop that supposedly fixed it:
- When installing timing belt, did they properly adjust the water pump to set belt tension?
- Did they verify timing marks before rotating engine?
- Did they turn over engine slowly by hand at least 2 full revolutions before moving forward, to verify free rotation; re-verifying timing marks after doing so?
- Did they properly torque head bolts, using the proper procedure of lb-ft, followed by degrees of rotation?

Dropping a camera in the plug hole will show if there was piston/valve contact, but will not prove if it occurred when they did the work, or if it was 5 years ago when someone else worked on it - not a definitive test.

Unfortunately, it sounds like this shop took advantage of you, and has some questionable practices - as noted before, certifications don't necessarily mean much; ASE certification means at least one mechanic there passed the tests - not all of them have to in order to legally display the signage. BBB certification is a joke; pay dues, get an A+. The various parts store chain logos don't mean diddly-squat - just means that's where they get the parts from, most likely - most store chains won't officially recommend a shop due to potential liability issues.

I personally wouldn't jump to replacing the engine - but would repair it properly; but I have the means to do the work myself, which can be a deciding factor. Heck, if you were closer to me, I'd tell you to bring me the car and we'd work on getting it done - my labor rate is only $25/hr, so you'd not be getting screwed by triple the labor rate like they did to you.

[Darsen]

Thank you SOOO much for your response!! I have been working with the Attorney General of Massachusetts on this and I have already got one of the shops feedback today. I am pasting it below.

Your post is pure GOLD to me, thank you so much.

I fix computers, not cars, so it has been a struggle for me to rebut what they are saying in the moment. This post now gives me some teeth and good solid questions to run with.

Here is the response from the first garage, I am in the midst of getting it sent over to another independent shop for diagnosis:

2004 Chevy Aveo has been towed into our garage on 02/03/17.

We checked the engine and discovered that the same head bolts were used on the previous repair, causing no compression in all the cylinders (head bolts cannot be reused due to them expanding). Also wrong timing was discovered. [Deleted Shop Name], Inc. does not recommend to repair the same engine due to any unknown damages previous repair may have caused. We at [Deleted Shop Name], Inc. suggested the client to have the engine assembly replaced.

[Darsen]

Why does EVERY mechanic I deal with ask my why I didn't just replace the motor??? It seems like the diagnosis for an Aveo is this: What is the issue? Engine related? Put a new/used motor in it.

The mechanic that I just spoke with told me that I should have just replaced the motor. Any time there is any internal issue, it is better to just replace the motor.

Just got a quote for $95 per hour for diagnosis. Was told it will take probably between 4 to 5 hours of diagnosis work to get to the "root" of the issue.

The guy basically thinks I am an idiot for attempting a head replacement. Clearly a motor replacement should have been done in his book.

What are your thoughts on this?? Am I barking up the wrong tree by wanting to fix the motor I have?

I grew up with a grandmother who lived through the great depression and I was always taught to fix what you have wherever possible. Waste not... Want not...

Basically I think the mechanic I spoke with thinks I brought all the issues on myself by insisting on replacing the head.

I need someone who knows what to do with an Aveo.

Everyone seems to think. Oh it is broken in the slightest?? Throw it away. Bail on it.

That is BS. From what I have read on these forums, this is a good little car if treated well.

Anyway.

[jimzdat]

IMO, the only reason to replace the entire motor is if there is damage to the rotating assembly (crankshaft, pistons, rods). I think most people resort to just replacing the engine because it's easier; just unbolt, remove, reinsert, bolt in - no special torque sequences, no precision adjustments, etc.

Like I mentioned - mine bent all the valves; but I was able to repair the head and it runs just fine.

Many mechanics don't want to touch these cars once they look at the manual for repairs - it requires the use of a special tool to set the timing belt tension properly, and many mechanics don't want to go out and buy a special tool for use on a single car (especially a ~13 year old econobox).

I am an independent mechanic, I don't work for a big chain, my garage is at my house - still have my ASE cert for general maintenance, and also set up an LLC (insurance and all that) to protect myself and customers. My recommendation would be to check with a couple of the local auto parts stores, and see if they know of anyone that does independent work - I get a metric ton of business from the local O'Reilly store (my dad works there, and half the counter people are my customers); whenever someone comes in that needs help working on something, they will usually hand them my card. I think you may get better results with a little independent as opposed to a major shop - might take a little longer to get done (for example, I primarily only work weekends), but us "little guys" are usually more willing to fix what you've got before jumping to major work.

Just an example of what I've got in the queue right now:
- 2008 F150; timing chains and cam phasers
- 2013 Dodge Dart; head gasket and timing chain (yeah, someone already screwed up that new a car)
- 2006 Hyundai Sonata; engine swap (damaged crank beyond repair)
- 1999 Audi A4; oil pump due to sludge
and that doesn't count the cars I am "flipping" - 02 Civic, 08 Sonata, 94 Caddy, 04 Malibu; or my own projects - 67 Mustang, 68 Mustang, 74 VW Bug/Subaru conversion.

[Melveo]

tool is like $30

[jimzdat]

tool is like $30

I know that, and you know that - but many people don't know that; and we all know that many shops would be more than happy to use that as an excuse not to do the job - or pass on a cost to a customer for the tool (gee, Mr. Customer, we're going to have to add on an extra $200 for special tools we have to get - are you sure you want to do this job? We can always just swap the engine without any special tools....)

[xintersecty]

tool is like $30

I am SO CHEAP, I used a set of channel locks to adjust my water pump position and got my belt aligned correctly. I have done this several times. Just don't ask about the time I did not torque my crank shaft pulley correctly (hangs head in shame).

Jimzdat deserves a huge amount of thanks for his write up and assessment. I completely agree with him 100%. I am a firmware programmer and I did my own head pull, rebuild and fix to the final cost of about 500 bucks for parts and head rebuild services.

1) Swapping heads around is easy breazy even red necks in my backwoods do it for fun. Of course they are swapping V8s and not our little precise four banger. So if I can do it and they can do it, any shop should have been able to do it.

2) Reusing torque head bolts is like a serous crime and not worthy of being called a mechanic. It's like to cheap to buy 35 dollars worth of parts and they blaming the customer while charging outrageous prices.

3) Setting the timing on these cars is pretty basic. I have done it successfully 3 times. Every time the car runs. I am not a mechanic. Just a guy who can read. So if they screwed up setting the timing, they they are going to deserve what they get.

here is my legal advice. Lawyer up. If you can't afford one, then look at legal shield. Sue them for the entire cost of a replacement car. This is known as getting your money back with punitive damages. Then have them settled for the cost of a replacement engine plus labor to be done at an other shop.